Gay Marriage

[accidental]

Those arguments make sense to me, Civil Union is a very clinical term and doesn't provide the same sense of significance that marriage does. I can see an argument that the significance of marriage is because of it's religious significance and that is why it should be 'protected'. I don't agree with that though.

I'm not sure I agree that Civil Unions were made to EXCLUDE gay people from marriage though. They already were excluded from marriage. The argument at the time, as I remember it, was that they weren't being granted the same rights, so Civil Union simply gave them those rights.

[Tel Prydain]

Fair call.

It might be better to say friends of mine that are gay feel like it sets a precedent that says it's okay to exclude gay people.

[Newsboy]

I think anybody who is anti-gay marriage are a step behind the ones who are pro it on the evolutionary ladder tbh. It's nothing but hatred towards a group of people that live a different life to the ones complaining.
It pisses me off to be honest, and it upsets me that I know people that are against it.

[emetic]

Originally Posted by Tel Prydain

I want to marry a double-down

Eh.. but that's kind of like necrophilia. I don't think marriage should be allowed between a person and an inanimate object o_O

Hey so in the status quo straights-only marriage, is a transsexual man (i.e. born a woman) allowed to marry a woman?

[accidental]

I think it's dangerous and inaccurate to decide that all people that oppose gay marriage hate gays. For many it's simply a big social change that they aren't ready for and are uninformed as to why it matters so much to gay people and shouldn't matter to them.

As a Christian I certainly struggle with being comfortable about homosexuality but I don't think that is based on anything logical. It's just a product of the culture I grew up in and even regular society struggles with coming to terms with homosexuality as well. I don't consider it something worth even focusing on because it doesn't affect me.

Where it becomes a really complex issue is around gay adoption.

[Tel Prydain]

I know quite a few Christians, on both sides of the debate. For the most part I respect their opinions, but there are some issues where people aren't able to express their ideas and feelings properly.

My brother is a very traditional, black and white, Christian.
The problem is that he doesn’t want to use bible-based reasons as he realises that, if some far day in the future we have a Muslim majority, he wouldn’t want their religion enshrined in law. As such he wouldn’t want to argue that law should be based on religion.
Unfortunately, he also feels like he can’t just say, “hey, I’m uncomfortable with that”. So instead he comes up with some… odd… and slightly offensive ideas.

It would be much better if her could, like accidental, just plainly express his view.

[sock merchant]

Originally Posted by accidental

I think it's dangerous and inaccurate to decide that all people that oppose gay marriage hate gays. For many it's simply a big social change that they aren't ready for and are uninformed as to why it matters so much to gay people and shouldn't matter to them.

As a Christian I certainly struggle with being comfortable about homosexuality but I don't think that is based on anything logical. It's just a product of the culture I grew up in and even regular society struggles with coming to terms with homosexuality as well. I don't consider it something worth even focusing on because it doesn't affect me.

Where it becomes a really complex issue is around gay adoption.

Yeah with you all the way. Same story essentially.

I have mate who is gay, nice dude overall. But I'd be lying if I said it didnt creep me out quite a bit. His decision though.

It doesn't really affect me in any way, so to a certain degree i just don't really care either way. People will do as they wish regardless of my opinion

Like listening to top 40 music. Makes me shiver.

[Newsboy]

Originally Posted by accidental

I think it's dangerous and inaccurate to decide that all people that oppose gay marriage hate gays. For many it's simply a big social change that they aren't ready for and are uninformed as to why it matters so much to gay people and shouldn't matter to them.

As a Christian I certainly struggle with being comfortable about homosexuality but I don't think that is based on anything logical. It's just a product of the culture I grew up in and even regular society struggles with coming to terms with homosexuality as well. I don't consider it something worth even focusing on because it doesn't affect me.

Where it becomes a really complex issue is around gay adoption.

Here's something that might help you be comfortable with it. Is a gay person a human? If so, then they deserve human rights and laws available to non-gay humans. It's absolutely horrendous that people can justify in their own demented ways that a human being with a preference different to their own is not worthy of having human rights.
As for gay adoption, whats the problem there? It's two loving people who want to raise a child. If two loving straight people can create gay children then what harm is two loving gay people going to do?
At least you admit that it's the society that you were brought up in that causes your discomfort, but hey, it's time you found a way to destroy the bullshit shackles that a 2000 year old book made to control people brings.
I'm not going to get into the topic of the bible any more than saying that I believe people hide behind it as a way to defend their hatred.
Old Testament says you can't sleep with a man as you would with a woman? It also says you aren't allowed to wear mixed blend clothing or cut your hair/beard. If you're going to follow one ridiculous fucking sin, then follow all of them.

[emetic]

Hey so I've also been wondering if hermaphrodites and people with XXY chromosomes allowed to marry.

[accidental]

You're unfairly reading into my comments Newsy. I think you read my use of the word 'uncomfortable' as like 'not cool with' but I literally meant uncomfortable, as in the unintentional feeling. Feeling uncomfortable isn't close to the same as feeling hateful.

And I totally understand your points about adoption. I'm typing on my phone so don't want to get into it now but all I meant by saying it us a complex issue is that the discussion involves the perspective of a child and not just two adults and thier private relationship. The word complex was used in the literal sense of the word, not as a proxy for "wrong" or "weird".

[Wugga]

I want someone to answer Emetic's question/s.

[accidental]

Further to my comments last night I thought I could explain it a little clearer for you Newsy. The kind of discomfort I feel around an affectionate gay couple is exactly the same as what I feel around an affectionate couple aged 25 and 65 (my wife's uncle and new aunty). Humans have a natural discomfort about people that are different. Just ask giants, dwarfs, quadriplegics, blind people, goths. They're not being discriminated against or hated on, they just get treated differently sometimes because they are different in an obvious way. People with simply different sexual orientations get treated differently less often because, in most cases, their outward appearance doesn't set them apart from everyone else. I'm sure you'll find many psychological and sociological studies about this natural human behaviour.

And just to be clear, I support the right to gay marriage. Anything that goes further to give full rights and normalise homosexuality. It shouldn't be something we pay any more attention to than other subcultures.

[Maucrephy]

^well put

[Tel Prydain]

Originally Posted by Newsboy

As for gay adoption, whats the problem there? It's two loving people who want to raise a child. If two loving straight people can create gay children then what harm is two loving gay people going to do?

There are two ways to address this issue. The first is with studies (of which we now have plenty) that prove that children raised in those homes are as healthy at those raised in other families. Also, there is no evidence that children raised by a gay couple is more likely to be gay.

The other way is to just point out; children are raised in crappy homes all the time… gang families, broken homes, destitute families and so forth.
If we allow gang members and known criminals to have children, why on earth would we stop homosexual couples adopting?

Originally Posted by Newsboy

Old Testament says you can't sleep with a man as you would with a woman? It also says you aren't allowed to wear mixed blend clothing or cut your hair/beard. If you're going to follow one ridiculous fucking sin, then follow all of them.

That not a great argument.
Most Christians would argue that the Old Testament laws apply because at that stage god couldn’t interact with people directly because of their sin, so the proxies had to follow special rules to keep themselves pure. In addition, some laws were given specifically to the Hebrews at that time for the purpose of building a nation, and things like ‘don’t eat pork that could kill you’ and ‘breed lots’ were given with that intention.
The idea is that Jesus’ death removed the barrier of sin, which then allowed direct communication with god (hence invalidating those rules).

Point of that micro-theology lesson is, if you want dialog with Christians around the issue of homosexuality, you need to avoid the Old Testament and stick with the New Testament. As Christians, the Jewish law (old testament) is largely irrelevant (although useful for learning more about the nature of god) and the important stuff is the ‘ new’ covenant’ that Jesus set in place.

[accidental]

Originally Posted by Tel Prydain

The other way is to just point out; children are raised in crappy homes all the time… gang families, broken homes, destitute families and so forth.
If we allow gang members and known criminals to have children, why on earth would we stop homosexual couples adopting?

This is an interesting comparison I reckon. Ethically we can't deny people the right to have children (ie, sterilise them) even if we know they'll immediately be born into an unsafe environment and be removed into state care. The argument is that, for the same reasons, we also can't deny a homosexual couple the opportunity to have children.

The issue isn't as clear cut as that though.

The heterosexual issue is more about the fact that we ethically can't deny any human their natural right to create a child, even for what seems to us like very good reasons at the time.

The homosexual issue is different because for homosexuals it is impossible for them to create a child to raise.

In fact, comparing homosexual adoption to heterosexual conception isn't useful at all. The real comparison is heterosexual adoption and homosexual adoption. In both cases the couple is naturally incapable of conception but the heterosexual couple is allowed to adopt whereas the homosexual couple is not.

The main difference between these two things, though, is that a heterosexual couple's infertility denies them an otherwise possible outcome and adoption serves to reverse that. Whereas adoption allows a homosexual couple to partake in an otherwise impossible outcome.

So you can see that the adoption issue isn't arbitrary homosexual hatred or prejudice, it is a more complex issue about something otherwise inevitable for heterosexuals and otherwise impossible for homosexuals. The issue is really about a denial of equal opportunity.

And just to be clear: this isn't me explaining my views. I'm just teasing out the different facets of the arguments involved for a good discussion.